BRIAN KENNY: Should you’re in search of excessive buyer satisfaction scores, the US healthcare sector is just not the place to start out. The poor displaying is especially irritating in gentle of the truth that the US healthcare sector invests round $200 billion a yr in R&D to enhance medical remedies and providers, which simply goes to point out that innovation in healthcare is difficult, however it’s additionally extremely essential, and generally you need to broaden your lens to search out the very best examples of the place it’s taking place. Immediately, on Chilly Name, we welcome Professor Regi Herzlinger and case protagonist, Gregory Rockson, to debate the case, “mPharma: Scaling Entry to Inexpensive Main Care in Africa.” I’m your host, Brian Kenny, and also you’re listening to Chilly Name on the HBR Podcast Community. Professor Regi Herzlinger is an skilled on consumer-driven healthcare and innovation in healthcare. She has even been referred to as the godmother of consumer-driven healthcare by Cash journal, and he or she wrote the ebook, Innovating in Healthcare: Creating Breakthrough Providers, Merchandise, and Enterprise Fashions. Welcome again to Chilly Name, Regi.

REGINA HERZLINGER: So fantastic to be right here, Brian.

BRIAN KENNY: Nice to have you ever again on the present. Gregory Rockson is the co-founder and CEO of mPharma. He’s an entrepreneur with a daring imaginative and prescient for the way forward for healthcare in Africa, and he’s the protagonist in at the moment’s case. Greg, welcome to the present.

GREGORY ROCKSON: Thanks for having me.

BRIAN KENNY: Nice to have you ever each right here. I feel individuals will likely be actually fascinated by listening to the form of progress that you simply’ve made, and kind of re-defining what healthcare may be like in Africa. So why don’t we simply get began. We’ll dive proper in. And Regi, I’ll ask you to kick us off right here by telling us what the central subject is within the case, and what your chilly name is to start out this dialogue within the classroom.

REGINA HERZLINGER: Properly, my programs on innovating healthcare is about tips on how to make healthcare improvements occur. Not “woulda”, not “shoulda”, not “coulda”, however how do you really make them occur? So Africa has a scarcity of physicians and, sadly, a corrupt and inefficient provide line for much-needed medication. mPharma, which Greg based and has brilliantly led, is bringing much-needed major care physicians to Africa, and a reliable provide line. So, for my college students, my college students love this case. They’re so energized by what Greg is doing. He’s obtained quite a lot of plans. He desires to purchase extra pharmacies. He already has a whole bunch. He desires to do extra telemedicine. He desires to start out an insurance coverage firm. And my query to them, as a result of the course is about how do you make it occur, is: how ought to Greg prioritize what he desires to do? In spite of everything, he can’t do all of it concurrently.

BRIAN KENNY: Yeah, that’s an awesome query. I’m certain it kicks off a very wealthy dialogue. I’m questioning the way you heard about mPharma and why you determined to write down a case about them.

REGINA HERZLINGER: I assumed it was a vital innovation in that Greg makes use of pharmacies as a base for bringing major care and for assuring an trustworthy and competent provide of medicine. We don’t have that many circumstances about African healthcare, however African healthcare is a much-needed space, bettering the healthcare in Africa, simply as in the USA, and an incredible enterprise alternative. So I assumed the case could be very inspiring for our college students, that Africa’s a really viable and fascinating setting for healthcare innovation. Two of my college students even have performed enterprise plans this yr about different improvements they want to carry to Africa. It is a very, very, highly effective instance of ESG in motion. In order that’s why I wrote the case. The response has been overwhelming.

BRIAN KENNY: Yeah, yeah. Greg, let me flip to you for a second. We’re going to get to your background in a minute, however I needed to start out simply by asking you… It sounds such as you’ve obtained rather a lot occurring, by the way in which. You’re a busy man. So thanks for taking time to be on the present at the moment. I needed to ask you what the affected person expertise is like within the elements of the world the place mPharma operates.

GREGORY ROCKSON: Thanks. I feel to start out off with, it’s good to kind of set up the context on why this issues. Africa accounts for 16% of the world’s inhabitants, however it additionally carries 23% of the illness burden. And throughout many nations that we function in, the kind of expertise individuals have is nothing to write down residence about. Actually, there was a current survey on public expertise of the general public well being system by Afrobarometer final yr, and the outcomes have been fairly fascinating. 79% of individuals reported lengthy wait occasions of their public hospitals, 73% reported a scarcity of medicines, 60% reported poor circumstances at their well being amenities, and 54% reported an absence of docs or medical personnel at these public well being amenities. And with the general public well being system being the most important supplier of healthcare, that is staggering. As a result of principally, the expertise that most individuals have is just not what you’d count on any competent well being system to supply for sufferers.

BRIAN KENNY: Perhaps you may inform us a bit bit about your background, Greg, and what led you to resolve to work on this area.

GREGORY ROCKSON: Yeah. So I used to be born in Ghana, grew up largely in Ghana. After which I moved to the US after highschool. I went to a tiny liberal arts faculty in the midst of nowhere, a city referred to as Fulton, Missouri, which was really the city that Winston Churchill delivered his “Iron Curtain” speech, predicting the Chilly Conflict. And so I went to Westminster Faculty to check. And after graduating, I had a choice to make. Do I keep within the US and begin my skilled profession, or do I’m going again residence and begin to do one thing completely different? At the moment, I spent my remaining yr in San Francisco, doing an internship. It was on the peak of the tech group, when the likes of Airbnb, Twitter, have been at their peak. And I used to be actually impressed. I used to be on this place the place… The middle of innovation. And I assume I obtained contaminated by that have, that I mentioned, “I would like to return residence,” to attempt to make a distinction and construct one thing that, in just a few a long time from now, may very well be celebrated simply as all these entrepreneurs have been being celebrated while I used to be within the Bay Space. So, I moved again residence. And what led me to mPharma significantly… I used to be a pre-med pupil. I studied as a premed pupil in faculty. I clearly didn’t proceed. I didn’t need to spend the following 10, 15 years of my life coaching to be a physician. So I moved out of the scientific care path as a result of I grew to become extra within the enterprise of healthcare. How can we construct new enterprise fashions that may really scale entry to care? I needed to construct a brand new mannequin that would permit sufferers to really have the ability to tackle a few of these challenges with out having to depend on the federal government and public well being system. In order that’s what led me to mPharma.

REGINA HERZLINGER: I feel it’s fascinating how most of the nice innovators in healthcare providers have had an epiphany about healthcare on account of private experiences with the healthcare system. Greg, you’ve had a few of that. Would you want to inform us about it?

GREGORY ROCKSON: Yeah. I imply, as a baby, I used to be identified to be the child that spent most of his time within the hospital. Actually, my finest mates grew to become the nurses on the hospital. So, I had a situation referred to as thoracic scoliosis, and that required me to do months of physiotherapy at a hospital. I feel each week throughout {that a} three-month interval, I needed to spend three days every week within the hospital. I needed to go in physiotherapy. And I used to be privileged as a result of I had… My dad was within the navy. And being within the navy meant that his kids earlier than the age of 18 may have entry to navy hospitals, which have been a number of the finest hospitals within the nation. Didn’t need to pay for it. However then you definately had lots of people who, as a way to get entry to these hospitals, needed to pay out of pocket. You may at all times see, going to the hospital, households who didn’t have the assets, the stress that it placed on them. All my function fashions have been my docs who have been treating me all through that have. And I feel from that time, I simply decided that healthcare goes to be my life’s work.

BRIAN KENNY: I imply, that’s invaluable expertise that you simply had firsthand as anyone who skilled the product and the service up shut. Thanks for asking him to share that, Regi. Let me flip to you for a second. You describe mPharma within the case as a patient-centered hospital, a patient-centered enterprise. Inform me how that differs from improvements to value controls or disseminating know-how–why is it so essential within the innovation course of?

REGINA HERZLINGER: So, I feel there are three forms of improvements which are wanted and potential in healthcare. One is to regulate the runaway prices. All around the world, irrespective of how a lot or little is spent, prices develop sooner than GDP. Second one is to disseminate the astounding know-how, which most not too long ago saved so many individuals throughout Covid. And the third is, as you began Brian, persons are very sad with their healthcare techniques all around the world. They discover it inaccessible, they discover it impersonal, and so they discover it too pricey. So addressing these wants is essential. And it’s completely different from improvements that management prices as a result of often these improvements do it on the expense of the affected person. They elevate the sum of money the affected person has to pay, they make it harder for the affected person to entry the physicians or different clinicians she or he wants. Improvements that disseminate know-how, they’re within the affected person, however very clinically. Does it have better effectiveness and security? Not a lot with the problems of entry, the problems of personalization that folks bemoan they don’t get from their healthcare system. So, Greg has created a system, it’s actually wonderful, the place he leverages the few physicians in Africa by telemedicine, by his many pharmacies. And he offers a patient-centered expertise and may ameliorate these nice and simply dissatisfactions with the personalization and accessibility of healthcare providers.

BRIAN KENNY: Properly, let’s flip again to that, Greg, for a second. We haven’t actually talked about mPharma and the enterprise mannequin that you’ve there. What are the constructing blocks that type the muse of mPharma?

GREGORY ROCKSON: So, at a excessive stage, we now have one easy goal: to remodel neighborhood pharmacies into major healthcare facilities throughout the continent. Consider it as a CVS Well being, increasing with minute clinics, after which increasing with Aetna to construct a brand new well being administration group. How we’ve performed, to construct this at mPharma, is to construct our technique throughout three core pillars we name obtain, ship, pay. So on the obtain pillar, the query we’re answering there’s, how do individuals expertise the well being system? In our research, what we noticed was that… Really, there was a query that was posed within the survey, was quite a lot of sufferers have been requested between high quality of care and proximity of care, what’s an important consider deciding the place you go and get care? Curiously sufficient, most sufferers decide proximity of care as a result of there’s a baseline of high quality for fundamental major healthcare wants that ought to exist. And if it exists, they’d reasonably not need to journey an extended distance simply to go get this fancy well being expertise. We requested ourselves, what’s the well being asset that’s already so near people who if we may broaden the kind of providers this asset may present, you may really tackle the proximity of care query? And that reply for us was the neighborhood pharmacy. It’s an area that the majority sufferers already relied on. Actually, the pharmacist is probably the most visited healthcare employee. So, there’s this wonderful utility that exists, and we needed to carry out that utility within the pharmacy. So we constructed our QualityRx program, the place we’d put money into pharmacies in order that we may really rework the bodily house of the pharmacy into a spot that may be handy for affected person care. So principally, rework how the pharmacy appears and feels, and be sure that it does what a pharmacy ought to do. In order that’s underneath the obtain pillar. And underneath the ship pillar, as soon as we’ve been in a position to rework the bodily infrastructure of the pharmacy to make it conducive for affected person care, we then requested ourselves, “If we wish this pharmacy to do extra than simply dispense medication, what’s the fundamental care coordination group that has to exist inside this pharmacy to have the ability to present the neighborhood with extra than simply medicines?” And in our evaluation, we realized that we wanted a fundamental care coordination group that may include a GP, a pharmacist who already exists within the pharmacy, and a nurse. And the rationale why this was essential was, as Regina talked about, it might be inconceivable to place docs in each pharmacy. However we now have quite a lot of neighborhood well being nurses which were educated by the general public well being system, that can’t be positioned within the public hospitals. And so we may really rent these nurses for a fraction of the price of a physician, and have them be bodily co-located in these pharmacies in order that when a affected person really visits the pharmacy and so they need to be seen by a physician, the nurse is the one that really does the examination. And if the nurse feels that they’ll want a physician to hitch that intervention, they will ship a request by our software program and the physician joins just about. After which the nurse assists the physician with the session that they will do. Keep in mind, within the public well being system, it prices the federal government over $8,000 a month to function a public well being facility. And we’re ready to do that for $660 a month. We can’t enhance entry to healthcare if we don’t scale back the price of healthcare supply, which our QualityRx mannequin permits us to do. After which the ultimate pillar is what we name pay, which is principally, how do we start to transition the fee fashions? Immediately, nearly all of sufferers pay out of pocket. I’d say 99% of our revenues come from out-of-pocket fee as a result of medical health insurance may be very minimal. In Nigeria, for instance, it’s about 3% of the population-

BRIAN KENNY: Wow.

GREGORY ROCKSON: … has medical health insurance. Nobody ever plans to fall sick. Whenever you fall sick, you could have this speedy catastrophic value that you need to incur. And since individuals haven’t saved to pay for that care, they’re discovered wanting. We really noticed in our knowledge that about 33% of sufferers come to the pharmacy, they get examined, they go to the counter to fill that prescription, they get the worth of the remedy, and so they say, “I’m sorry, I don’t come up with the money for to have the ability to pay for the remedy.”

BRIAN KENNY: Proper. Proper.

GREGORY ROCKSON: So, we knew that okay, to actually shut that hole, we needed to innovate our personal fee fashions. And so we constructed our personal managed care plan referred to as Multi-plus, which value $1.90 a month. And the rationale it was $1.90 is that we checked out what’s the present excessive poverty line. And the intense poverty line are people who spend $1.90 a day. Our view was that it might be very laborious to supply medical health insurance to the poorest of the poor when you’ve got them pay greater than a day’s earnings for that healthcare they want every month.

BRIAN KENNY: After all.

GREGORY ROCKSON: And so, we needed to design a plan that may value somebody only a day’s wages to in a position to get absolutely lined in a month. And we constructed this new plan referred to as Multi-plus. It’s nonetheless early days, however their knowledge has been extraordinarily, extraordinarily spectacular. And we glance to scale that throughout our operations.

BRIAN KENNY: So, what Greg is describing is an incredible quantity of innovation over a comparatively quick time period, Regi. And I do know that that is your core matter, is innovation in healthcare. Why is it so tough? He’s recognized all of the areas that I feel you’d discover in most nations. Individuals are dissatisfied with insurance coverage funds. They’re dissatisfied with the standard of care supply, entry to care. How has he been in a position to innovate on this when others discover it so tough to do?

REGINA HERZLINGER: I feel Greg described, inadvertently maybe, why it’s extra potential to do it in Africa than within the US or in Western Europe. And that’s, the established order may be very highly effective within the US and in Western Europe. Within the US, it’s more and more highly effective and more and more consolidated. All people loves innovation, however not if it occurs to them. So, within the US, innovators in consumer-facing improvements or cost-controlling improvements face main obstacles from hospitals that don’t need their prices decreased. Insurance coverage corporations that like issues simply the way in which they’re, thanks very a lot. So, in Africa, due to the absence of this highly effective establishment, it’s simpler. Not simple. What you’ve performed, Greg, is wonderful, however it’s simpler to get improvements established. Within the US, nonetheless, there are comparable improvements to mPharma. Greg talked about how comfort is a vital facet of healthcare to the patron. And CVS, which has 9,900 shops; Walgreens, which has about 8,000; Walmart that has 5,500 shops; and the ever-present Amazon are all going into the supply of major care and, after all, as a result of most of them are pharmacies of medicine. What they don’t have that Greg has, not less than to not date, is an efficient NPS rating. CVS ranks very, very low in internet promoter scores, the satisfaction of its clients and its distributors. And we’ll see how properly Walmart and Amazon do on this difficult house.

BRIAN KENNY: Yeah.

REGINA HERZLINGER: Greg is consumer-focused. He’s not primarily attempting to regulate prices, though he does. And he’s actually not innovating new medication. He’s attempting to assist the patron. That’s what he’s speaking about. That form of focus has led to a terrific internet promoter rating. I hope our pharmacies will study out of your experiences.

BRIAN KENNY: Yeah. Greg, you made it sound simple whenever you described the 4 pillars. I do know it wasn’t, as Regi factors out. And the case does an awesome job of describing a number of the issues that you simply needed to do to even educate pharmacists and pharmacies about tips on how to run their enterprise, tips on how to arrange their operation in a means that was extra customer-centric. Are you able to describe a bit little bit of the issues that you simply tried there?

GREGORY ROCKSON: I’ll say we’re nonetheless studying as a result of we’re nonetheless very early days in our journey. I say the chance is far greater than no matter we’ve even scratched at the moment. There have been a few fundamental ideas. First is that while quite a lot of pharmacists are educated as healthcare professionals, whenever you run a pharmacy, you’re additionally a enterprise. And most of them didn’t consider the enterprise aspect of working the pharmacy. The opposite facet was additionally starting to alter how sufferers consider their pharmacy—how can we construct belief with sufferers, that they start to see their pharmacies in a special gentle? How did we do that? We preferred a really sturdy neighborhood well being program the place, on a weekly foundation, we now have nurses that we assign to every pharmacy who go to houses and workplaces round that pharmacy to do preventive well being checks. They usually use that as a possibility to speak about the kind of providers they will now get from the pharmacist that they already know locally, however now does extra. And that was a really nice solution to start to really construct belief with the neighborhood. So over the past 18 months, we’ve supplied wellness checks to about 250,000 individuals throughout the communities that we serve. And that allowed them to change into… “Wow. Before everything, my hospital has by no means despatched a nurse to my residence. You recognize what I imply? Test my blood stress. So, if my pharmacy is sending a nurse to my residence to test my blood stress, then I ought to begin counting on it for extra issues.” In order that was a really crucial step to start to construct belief, but additionally change the notion that folks have of their pharmacy. And as soon as we ready to do this, that noticed a rise within the confidence that folks have. Now, Regina talked about NPS. Now we have an NPS of about 60, our pharmacies. So that ought to let you know the extent of belief that we’re constructing between the communities we serve and the pharmacies that we now have been on it.

BRIAN KENNY: And for many who don’t know, NPS is internet promoter rating. Regi talked about it earlier than. And that’s kind of the go-to metric that people who find themselves within the customer support business look to search out how they’re doing with clients. That’s a really excessive rating. You additionally, I feel inadvertently, identified an essential factor that I need to underscore, which is that you simply needed to train these pharmacists tips on how to run a enterprise that’s sustainable. And we discuss rather a lot in regards to the social objective of the agency on Chilly Name. Plenty of our school write circumstances about corporations which are doing issues which are socially good, however none of them could be in enterprise in the event that they didn’t work out how to do that in a means that was sustainable. So, the enterprise facet, it at all times comes again to the enterprise facet at some stage for us. Let’s discuss a bit bit in regards to the pandemic. You launched this effort proper across the time that the pandemic hit. And Regi and I’ve talked earlier than about different circumstances that she’s written and simply observations that you simply’ve had, Regi, about how we search for silver linings in a horrible state of affairs, Covid had a silver lining for the healthcare sector when it comes to it forcing us to innovate, perhaps in ways in which would’ve taken for much longer in any other case. Is that secure to say?

REGINA HERZLINGER: Completely, sure. Every little thing you say, correct and eloquently put. So the US, regardless of our spending about 20% of GDP on healthcare, we now have only a few hospital beds. Now we have about three hospital beds per thousand, whereas Germany, which spends proportionately a lot lower than we, they’ve eight. So when Covid hit, individuals who wanted surgical procedure, individuals who had coronary heart assaults, individuals who had most cancers, we didn’t have any hospital beds to serve them. And an entire new sector was in a position to spring up, and that’s to get care in alternate websites, to get it in pharmacies like CVS, to get it in ambulatory surgical procedure facilities, to get it by telemedicine conferences with a doctor or nurse. Many of those improvements have been outdated. They’ve been round for many years, however the established order suppressed them. For instance, a physician in Utah couldn’t present medical care by telemedicine to a affected person in, let’s say, Massachusetts absent a really sophisticated regulatory course of that permitted her to render that care. Most of that went away throughout Covid as a result of we had such determined want for different websites to supply care, and an entire new crop of essential consumer-facing, cost-controlling improvements sprang up. In order you say, each cloud has a silver lining.

BRIAN KENNY: Yeah, yeah. Greg, what was the affect of Covid on mPharma? How did you react to what was taking place?

GREGORY ROCKSON: Wow. I’d say, going by the feelings. It was like, “Oh my god, we’re performed.” After which, “Oh my god, it’s wonderful.” So, I’ll begin with the “Oh my god, we’re performed.” We had at that time an enormous a part of our enterprise. We have been simply at that time constructing our pharmacy as a major care enterprise. And what you noticed with the pandemic was most sufferers have been afraid to go to hospitals as a result of they have been afraid of catching the virus. And so most hospitals noticed an enormous decline of their revenues. As a result of if our hospitals don’t make cash, then we’re additionally not getting cash. After which the “Oh my god, it’s wonderful” have been two issues. One is we repurposed our infrastructure. We noticed instantly that Covid testing was going to be a really large subject that governments would fail to do. So we created a brand new plan the place we’d work with our hospital companions to repurpose their current laboratories into molecular labs to have the ability to do Covid testing. And we constructed that infrastructure. And at its peak, we grew to become the most important provider of Covid testing within the non-public sector in Ghana, Nigeria, and different nations that we have been created in.  And the second a part of it was while individuals decreased visits to hospitals, they elevated visits to pharmacies. And that started to really faucet into this imaginative and prescient that we had that pharmacies are the very best place to construct a brand new care supply mannequin.

REGINA HERZLINGER: And I feel it’s essential to grasp that mPharma is a enterprise. Many individuals when they give thought to healthcare, consider companies as kind of evil. Physicians check with all of it too usually because the darkish aspect. So right here we now have an instance of an awesome enterprise, very properly managed and financially safe enterprise, that does a lot good, and the way companies can play such an essential function in bettering healthcare.

BRIAN KENNY: Yeah. Greg, let me ask you a query about scale right here. Since you began in a single location, you could have now scaled to a number of nations. At a time when discovering professionals in healthcare is basically laborious to do, I’m questioning the way you’re attracting expertise and the way you have been in a position to scale up.

GREGORY ROCKSON: When individuals ask what I spend most of my time doing as CEO, I say it’s making the case for why individuals ought to be part of mPharma and see mPharma because the place for them to not solely obtain affect, but additionally monetary success. We give staff fairness within the firm. Each worker within the firm, from workplace managers to drivers, have fairness within the firm. After we are profitable, I would like individuals to additionally see their success of their financial institution accounts as properly. I’ve this precept I share with my group members that each quarter, you’ll get to know somebody new, that even when we don’t have a job but at mPharma for them we get to know them, and if a job opens up, you must know who you’ll go to. Actually, I’ve at all times lived by that precept. I at all times attempt to know expertise on the market, even when they work at different locations, as a result of each time I’ve a job… There’s by no means a time I’ve had a job that I’ve by no means identified who I ought to name as a result of I’ve spent the time investing in attending to know individuals, their pursuits, and simply occupied with how they will match into mPharma’s grand imaginative and prescient as we proceed to unlock a number of the steps that we have to take.

REGINA HERZLINGER: So, I don’t need to sound like a meanie, and I don’t need to sound… You recognize. And I applaud every part you’ve performed, Greg, to empower your workers. However in case you do an IPO and each single worker has shares of inventory, chances are you’ll dwell, sadly, to remorse that call.

BRIAN KENNY: That feels like enterprise recommendation, Greg, that you simply would possibly need to need to take to coronary heart.

REGINA HERZLINGER: Give it some thought.

BRIAN KENNY: So, this has been a superb dialog, as I knew it might be, however I’m acutely aware of our time right here. And I’ve obtained two questions left, I’ve obtained one for every of you, and I’ll give Regi the final phrase. So I’ll begin with Greg right here. However Greg, fairly merely, what does the long run seem like for mPharma? What’s your hope and aspiration and the way will you realize whenever you’ve achieved it?

GREGORY ROCKSON: In 5 years from now, I would like mPharma to change into the most important well being system that operates on the continent. Numbers-wise, I would like us to have the ability to serve 1 million sufferers a month. Mainly, I’d need us to have constructed an infrastructure that rivals the likes of Kaiser Permanente within the US. And the cherry on the highest could be that we now have an organization that’s not a privately run firm, however it’s an organization that has achieved success sufficient that it’s worthy to be listed on the Inventory Alternate within the US. That, for me, is what success will seem like.

BRIAN KENNY: Wow. Okay. That’s an awesome imaginative and prescient. Regi, I’ll provide the final phrase. Once more, thanks for writing the case. If there’s one factor you need individuals to recollect about it, about mPharma, what would it not be?

REGINA HERZLINGER: It’s {that a} non-public enterprise in Africa can accomplish that a lot good, and may accomplish that properly as a enterprise. And the steps that Greg took to make it occur, they sound very elemental and so they sound simple, however they’re neither a kind of. They have been laborious steps to do, and he’s performed them brilliantly.

BRIAN KENNY: Regi Herzlinger, Greg Rockson, thanks for becoming a member of me on Chilly Name.

REGINA HERZLINGER: Thanks.

GREGORY ROCKSON: Thanks.

BRIAN KENNY: Should you take pleasure in Chilly Name, you would possibly like our different podcasts, After Hours, Local weather Rising, Deep Objective, IdeaCast, Managing the Way forward for Work, Skydeck, and Ladies at Work. Discover them on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you pay attention, and in case you may take a minute to price and overview us, we’d be grateful. You probably have any recommendations or simply need to say hey, we need to hear from you. Electronic mail us at coldcall@hbs.edu. Thanks once more for becoming a member of us. I’m your host, Brian Kenny, and also you’ve been listening to Chilly Name, an official podcast of Harvard Enterprise College and a part of the HBR Podcast Community.