HANNAH BATES: Welcome to HBR on Management, case research and conversations with the world’s prime enterprise and administration consultants, hand-selected that will help you unlock the perfect in these round you. Megan Rapinoe is thought for her capacity to carry out underneath stress on the soccer area — or soccer area, in the event you’re outdoors the U.S. In 2019, she led the U.S. girls’s staff to the World Cup championship. However Rapinoe’s management extends past making massive targets in excessive stakes video games. She has embraced her function as staff captain AND as an advocate for causes she believes in – like gender pay fairness. On this episode, you’ll find out how Rapinoe step by step grew into her management function on the U.S. girls’s staff, how private relationships along with her teammates determine in her strategy to management, and what she does to maintain her teammates motivated – particularly after laborious losses. This episode initially aired on HBR IdeaCast in June 2020. Right here it’s.tag:audio.hbr.org,2023-4-21:on–management.s1.0016

ALISON BEARD: Welcome to the HBR IdeaCast from Harvard Enterprise Evaluation. I’m Alison Beard. Right here within the U.S. and in lots of different international locations around the globe, sports activities have been on hiatus for some time as a result of Covid-19 disaster.  However in common occasions, skilled athletics function not solely leisure in our societies, but additionally as a approach to study teamwork, management and the best way to carry out underneath stress. Our visitor in the present day, Megan Rapinoe, cemented her place in soccer historical past – for soccer historical past for these outdoors the U.S. – on the 2019 Girls’s World Cup with some crucial targets, together with some clutch penalty kicks.

ANNOUNCER: Rapinoe prepared. To fireside this in. And it went all the way in which in!

ALISON BEARD: She led her staff to a championship and received the Golden Boot. She’s additionally been a fierce advocate for LGBTQ rights, racial justice, and gender fairness. Again in 2016, she took a knee in the course of the nationwide anthem to protest police brutality towards black Individuals. And he or she’s helped lead her staff’s lawsuit, demanding equal pay for feminine gamers, towards the U.S. Soccer Federation. I had an opportunity to talk with Megan late final yr, 5 months after her World Cup win, on the Massachusetts Convention for Girls. Right here’s our dialog.

ALISON BEARD:  Why don’t we begin by speaking about efficiency underneath stress?  You had a tremendous World Cup, penalty kicks, extra targets after that.  The President tweeting you throughout the entire time.  How did you grow to be so clutch?

MEGAN RAPINOE:  I don’t know to be trustworthy.  I feel slightly little bit of it is rather like my pure inclination.  I’m a fairly assured individual and fortunately don’t take care of plenty of like you realize, anxiousness or something.  However I feel so much occasions we put a lot stress on ourselves.  We’re consistently within the stress cooker, whether or not it’s our personal self doing in coaching, or no matter it’s, and the staff has been so profitable for therefore a few years, however I feel additionally that’s the expectation of perfection.  In order that’s form of at all times our objective. So, it’s form of like in the event you made it to the World Cup on the Girls’s Nationwide Staff, in the event you’re a starter on the World Cup as a Girls’s Nationwide Staff participant, I imply you’ve gone by way of the gauntlet.  So it’s like, form of by the point you get there you’re form of nicely ready for it.  And in addition like, I adore it.  I really like massive video games.  My like nightmare is to play in entrance of 2500 folks, particularly now that I’ve performed in these massive video games. I see myself as an entertainer together with an athlete.  In all probability extra of an entertainer than an athlete.  I feel I resonate with that slightly bit extra.  So I really feel like I simply experience these moments.  Having the group be what it’s.  Being like within the highlight when so typically girls sports activities isn’t within the highlight.  So to be within the World Cup in a second like that with all these loopy followers and it’s enjoyable in these moments and it’s like in the event you miss, I don’t know.  Like in the event you miss a penalty, in the event you miss a shot, you missed it.  You may’t return.  You may’t do something.  You may simply attempt to not make the identical mistake twice. However I’ve misplaced so much in my profession.  I’ve received so much in my profession.  You form of take it form of all with the nice.  And I feel notably having the success that I’ve had in my profession, I notice it’s actually not all about that.  It’s not concerning the successful.  Oftentimes you win these video games and also you’re like OK.  Properly then what?  It actually form of is concerning the course of and the journey and the folks you’re with and getting higher every single day and I really feel such as you simply form of take it with a grain of salt and notice that I get to play soccer in entrance of fifty, 60, 70,000 folks and hundreds of thousands watching on the planet.  That’s an unbelievable stage to be on, so I form of prefer it.

ALISON BEARD:  When you may have had setbacks, being sidelined by accidents, massive losses, missed alternatives, how do you get better?

MEGAN RAPINOE:  I feel it’s actually vital to permit your self to really feel in that second.  My first main, main one was 2011 World Cup.  We have been actually successful with two minutes left within the sport and we ended up letting in a late objective and we misplaced the penalty kicks, and that was similar to devastating.  It was what are you going to do about it?  You may’t return. So I feel for me similar to letting your self really feel, like get your ugly cries out within the bathe, or no matter it’s, after which simply strive to not make the identical mistake twice.  Simply form of benefit from the journey.  There’s at all times going to be one other sport.  We had the Olympics the next yr that we ended up successful. It’s sports activities.  You’re not going to win each single sport or have the perfect efficiency of your life.  And if there’s accidents, it’s like that’s an occupational hazard.  So you possibly can sit and dwell and like you realize, be like frumpy for everything of your harm, or you possibly can simply get on with it and form of discover different issues to fill your time and do your rehab, and form of do no matter it’s.  However I feel that’s simply form of life.  Like simply because I’m an athlete, or we’re like on this public factor doesn’t imply we don’t battle and do the identical issues that everyone else does.  You’re going to have good occasions, you’re going to have dangerous occasions.  It’s extra about form of the way you take care of it whilst you’re in it and simply, I suppose like not taking it too severely both.  Like OK, we misplaced the World Cup Ultimate.  Like that’s not the largest deal on the planet.  Like in our sport, sure, however actually in life it’s similar to you realize, it’s only one other thing.

ALISON BEARD:  So you may have positively emerged because the clear chief of the staff.  You’re the captain, however you’re additionally A) the star proper now, after your efficiency within the World Cup, but additionally simply somebody who’s pushing everybody ahead.  How did you develop into that function?

MEGAN RAPINOE:  Rising is an effective way to say it.  It positively was a means of getting in, you realize, oftentimes within the nationwide groups the captains and leaders are form of somebody extra within the veteran group, and a part of that’s since you come on the staff and also you’re younger and also you’re like, oh my God.  That is insane.  All these different gamers have been right here for therefore lengthy and attempt to be taught from them. Clearly I had actually nice mentors within the gamers that got here earlier than.  However I feel I form of began to understand the ability that I did have, after which actually form of making a aware choice, in all probability like 2016, 17 of like, I must tackle extra – not just for myself, to problem myself as a result of I feel it has held me accountable in a manner that I wasn’t accountable earlier than.  Simply to myself and to my teammates. And in addition similar to, to be trustworthy it’s slightly little bit of Groundhog’s Day in skilled sports activities.  I’m like OK, I’m in my tenth yr, I’m turning, you realize, it’s form of like the identical factor, so emotionally and intellectually it may get slightly mundane and I really feel like it is a manner for me to essentially problem myself and increase myself in that manner. After which I feel I do have a specific charisma and belief inside the staff.  I’ve at all times been a staff first form of participant.  I’ve by no means been the perfect participant and I’m not even positive that I’m the perfect participant on the staff, however I actually carry plenty of weight and I feel that so long as I can do this in a constructive manner then I can have a very massive influence on the staff in the end.  Like I need to win.  I need to achieve success.  However I would like everybody else to do it with me and I need to do it with them. So I really feel like – and oftentimes in sports activities too it’s like so archaic and backwards, and like similar to 4 a long time behind.  It’s like once we create this setting the place all people feels seen and heard, and everybody feels assured, and everybody seems like they’ve a spot inside the staff.  And if a extra senior participant may be the one setting that instance, than the entire construction and the setting modifications inside that.

ALISON BEARD:  So probably the most outstanding management roles you’ve taken is on this spearheading this push for gender fairness in soccer.  So inform me about why you made that call and the way you persuaded your teammates to return together with you.

MEGAN RAPINOE:  Clearly there’s sure folks that talk extra within the media extra, or names are on the legislation fits, or no matter.  This has at all times been, you realize, courting again generations to be frank.  This has at all times been a staff combat.  We’ve at all times made each single choice with the entire group in thoughts, or with the whole group which may be very tough at occasions.  You get 30 folks or 25 folks on a telephone name or in a room, or no matter it’s, however we actually need to get the perfect out of the entire thing for everybody. So, I feel once more, it’s like if my half so as to add to the entire thing is to be the speaking piece of it, or be the mouthpiece than that’s similar to my job in it.  As a result of different individuals are like actually using the construction of our CBA, or those which might be form of just like the architects of our technique and philosophy and all of that.  And yeah, I get like extra of the eye and you realize, even personally, extra of the accolades for it, nevertheless it actually is a whole staff course of. After which typically it’s like being the louder one and like in some methods the extra dominate one.  All the time attempting to take heed to be dominate, however do it in the way in which that everyone desires.  Don’t similar to do it for your self.  So, form of attempting to gauge the entire group after which carry everybody together with you is slightly little bit of a problem, as a result of everybody has their very own perspective.  However I feel we do a very good job of, particularly behind closed doorways, like holding everybody accountable and difficult everybody, and ensuring that then once I go communicate, or when Alex goes to talk we’re usually out within the media.  We’re talking on behalf of the group at all times.

ALISON BEARD:  One facet of this that I feel will actually resonate with our readers is the truth that with our listeners is the truth that it’s not nearly pay, it’s additionally about assets.  It’s about advertising and coaching and growth.  And I feel that’s a difficulty that girls in company America face too.

MEGAN RAPINOE:  It’s principally about all of that stuff.  Clearly the pay.  I feel pay is how we are saying that we validate folks in our society or no matter.  In order that’s like form of the new button problem, however we’ve been saying for a very long time, you can’t have a dialog about compensation till you may have a dialog about funding within the youth packages, and within the medical, and within the excessive efficiency, and in sports activities advertising and within the branding of the staff, and within the ticket gross sales, and in just like the sponsorships.  Like every thing. So, it’s like yeah, you possibly can say that the lads have on common extra attendance than the ladies.  But it surely’s like you probably have 10 folks have been on ticket gross sales for the lads, and one individual engaged on ticket gross sales for the ladies, then like this isn’t a good dialog.  So so as to truly get to a significant and good dialog about compensation, every thing else needs to be equal.  Then we will get to the purpose to say, OK.  Now the market is about and every thing is equal and the a long time of gender discrimination have been equaled out, and now we will discuss compensation.  However till then, it’s like that’s such an incomplete manner to talk about it.

ALISON BEARD:  Yeah.  You turned nicely often known as an activist whenever you determined to kneel in assist of Colin Kaepernick, in assist of racial justice.  So, inform me why you made that call and the way you reacted to the backlash.

MEGAN RAPINOE:  The choice truthfully got here very straightforward and really merely to me.  I watch the information.  I’m an avid watcher of SportsCenter and only a reader of the information and I attempt to sustain on what’s taking place on the planet.  Seeing Colin communicate, seeing what he was talking about, we’d you realize, simply come by way of an extremely violent summer season.  There had been, 2016, I feel there had been 5 tremendous excessive profile murders of individuals of colour by police.  The 5 law enforcement officials in Dallas have been snipered down.  So we’d simply come by way of this actually loopy summer season, so it was like, it’s taking place, clearly.  We’ve large incarceration.  Like anyone’s who says this isn’t taking place, it’s similar to, you realize, willfully blind. So, understanding all of that’s taking place, being, have been within the place being a homosexual girl, or homosexual athlete is like hey, I don’t want you to know every thing that I’m going by way of and I don’t want you to be homosexual to know, like I would like your allied-ship and I would like all people to get onboard with this.  So for me it was like OK.  That is one thing tangible that I can do.  I assumed as a white athlete it was additionally actually vital to indicate assist in that manner.  I feel so typically folks form of shrink back when it’s not actually their pores and skin within the sport.  However like truly in the event you have a look at all of the letters and intersectionality, like it’s all of our pores and skin within the sport, it’s all the identical factor to me. So, I simply felt like this was one thing that I may assist with.  I truthfully thought much more athletes would get entangled.  Definitely much more white athletes would get entangled. How did I take care of the backlash?  I bear in mind this very, it was very tough.  Not from like a, I imply from a private stand, however not from like oh did I do the fitting factor, or no matter.  I by no means wavered in that.  I’ve by no means wavered in that.  I really feel you realize, much more solidified in my choice now than I ever have. However wow, I imply folks have been an enormous mad about it.  They have been similar to, actually, actually, actually upset and clearly the dialog acquired twisted in so many alternative methods, and folks saying I’m leveraging this for myself, or unpatriotic, or all of these items.  I attempted to only form of climate it.  I imply clearly personally it was laborious in methods.  I didn’t get dropped by any sponsors, however I didn’t have any new sponsorships.  I didn’t play once more for the nationwide staff or put the shirt on till, you realize, successfully the rule was made you needed to stand.  They’re denying that, nevertheless it’s like fairly apparent. But additionally like, the individuals who I care about, the voices who I cared about their opinions have been very supportive.  Clearly the folks round me, very near me, however activists and Colin and different athletes which have kneeled.  And social justice folks, and like people who find themselves within the trenches and simply understanding how vital that was to have the allyship, but additionally simply to say it, prefer to say sure, I see you and I hear you, and I imagine you.  Like I’ve not skilled racial injustice or racial profiling.  However I don’t need to, to say that you’ve, or to imagine you, or to know that it’s truly taking place.  So, it’s like yeah.  It was laborious.  But additionally it’s a lot much less laborious than being racially profiled your entire life, so.

ALISON BEARD:  If you talked to company leaders now that you’ve such a platform about what they’ll do to advertise inclusivity of their organizations, particularly for his or her LBGTQ staff.  What do you inform them?  What recommendation do you give?

MEGAN RAPINOE:  I imply one factor I at all times say is that it’s important to set the setting previous to somebody already being within the setting.  Like they want it earlier than.  Such as you have a look at the NFL.  I don’t assume any NFL proprietor could be like no, we don’t need gays on our staff.  Clearly they don’t and so they’re not very welcoming to it and so they’re not establishing the setting prior.  So even when it’s simply language or it’s a coaching program that you just undergo, however then I feel additionally in form of the sensible like, what are your hiring practices?  How various is your workers?  How various is the folks that work in your workplace?  Do you may have any range coaching programs?  Who do you do enterprise with?  All these items like sign to folks whether or not you’re secure or not.  Clearly folks don’t really feel secure in plenty of environments.  So, I feel the proactivity of the folks within the majority is just like the actually vital factor, particularly in the event you’re speaking about CEOs or the chief committee.  Like how do you communicate to folks and what does the committee you realize, what does the Govt Suite appear like?  Is all of it folks that look precisely the identical?  As a result of that’s not going to sign to different folks that there’s house for them to be there.

ALISON BEARD:  Yeah.  I’d like to get again to staff management.  How do you encourage your fellow gamers?  It is a group of stars, individuals who have been the perfect at what they do without end and know the best way to play.  So, what do you do to get them going, to carry them again once they’re feeling down?

MEGAN RAPINOE:  I feel it truly is about cultivating a private relationship with these gamers.  And it’s not at all times, like I’m not finest associates with all of the gamers on my staff.  , I’m clearly higher associates with some folks than others.  A few of that’s simply age.  Like I’m over a decade over a few of these gamers. However in that particular sense, it’s about understanding, do I have to be an individual that’s going to get into somebody slightly bit and be like this isn’t ok?  Or is that going to crush somebody?  Particularly coming from me.  Like I’ve to know if I’m a decade older than these gamers, like they actually grew up watching me play.  And I grew up watching these different gamers play after which having that have.  So, what do gamers really want?  As a result of it actually, it’s like management fashion actually isn’t about having one fashion, it’s about being shifty and giving different folks what they want as a result of in the end the perfect factor is that everyone is assured and cozy. So then they’ll simply do the factor that they’re good at.  Clearly this staff is ridiculous and all people’s wonderful and so they actually don’t want any motivation, but when individuals are low on confidence or the coach isn’t giving them what they want, or they’re not enjoying, no matter, then like simply meet them form of the place they’re and perceive what will get the perfect out of these gamers, and provides them that.  Like if, I don’t have to be the participant that’s going to yell at everybody.  If somebody wants that high quality, however I don’t actually care what you want, I simply must know what it’s so then we will have that relationship going backwards and forwards.

ALISON BEARD:  Yeah.  Who’re a number of the finest coaches or participant/coaches that you just’ve labored with and what did you be taught from them?

MEGAN RAPINOE:  The actually safe and assured and trustworthy ones are the perfect.  It’s like, it’s powerful with our group too.  I imply we’re a gaggle of very elite, gifted, assured girls and if there’s blood within the water then it’s dangerous information.   I feel in all probability within the company construction and the enterprise world that’s the identical manner. I imply our new coach Vlatko Andonovski, I had him for 2 years in Seattle.  He’s only a all the way down to earth man.  Like he’s simply chill and he’s very safe in who he’s.  However he’ll give it to you very straight, nevertheless it’s like he’ll additionally inform you like wow, that was wonderful.  So there’s that good steadiness.  Just a little humor by no means hurts.  Like we’re in an clearly a form of excessive stress setting and particularly all these items off the sphere.  It could get very critical, so injecting slightly humor into that.  Mark Krikorian was the most effective coaches that I’ve ever had.  He works at Florida State for a very long time.  He’s the pinnacle coach there.  He simply was like trustworthy and safe with himself.  I feel that’s in all probability an important factor is to be safe with your self as a result of in the end on the finish of the day we’re simply folks and we simply have relationships. So, in the event you’re bringing different form of BS into it, then you definately’re not going to get the perfect out of somebody and folks perceive that instantly.  After which it’s such as you’re form of speaking about issues, however you’re actually not speaking what we must be speaking about and so every thing else simply sorts of get in the way in which.  So, for me somebody who’s courageous and form of prepared to be trustworthy and talk about that, however I feel that comes from a spot of safety.

ALISON BEARD:  Yeah.  So that you appear extremely safe in your self.  Assured that you realize your self.  So this brash authenticity which is nice.  I imply brash in the easiest way.  The place does it come from?

MEGAN RAPINOE:  Oh gosh.  I do assume slightly bit was you realize, born in a assured sense with a aptitude for the dramatic within the entertaining facet of me.  I additionally assume that, it’s like I virtually didn’t develop up in common society as a result of I grew up round all of those different tremendous assured, very profitable, highly effective girls in my staff. So, once we go to bounce concepts off one another, and even simply form of the unsaid suggestions that you just acquired, it’s at all times form of like is that this too loopy and everybody’s like no, probably not.  That is simply us.  Ought to we file this lawsuit three months earlier than we go to the World Cup?  Yep, in all probability.  And so we form of like enable ourselves that house to only form of be nevertheless you might be and clearly I’m very fortunate to be on an unbelievable staff that wins so much.  So we get to have constructive emotions about ourself so much I feel in our job, and I feel too it’s similar to, being a public determine in no matter form of manner that it’s, I actually don’t care about that.  I care about what my mother says and what my sister says and like what, my associate Sue says and what my teammates say about me, as a result of I do know they’re going to provide it to me actual, as a result of they don’t care if I’m well-known or not.  Like nobody that I actually, actually love cares about that so I really feel like I’ve this sort of like, trustworthy suggestions loop, too trustworthy typically.  I’m like I don’t want this mother.  Like this morning, she was such as you look actually drained.  I’m like I’m drained mother.

ALISON BEARD:  Oh, that’s the worst factor you possibly can say to somebody.

MEGAN RAPINOE:  I do know.  I’m like I’m drained.  Thanks.  However I feel too, similar to I don’t take it too severely.  I get to play soccer for a dwelling.  That’s wonderful.  I get the unbelievable privilege of being the place I’m now.  Having the ability to stand on this platform that so many different folks have helped to construct.  And so simply attempting to take all of it in with a grain of salt and like I’m no higher than anybody else.  Like OK, I’m good at soccer.  That doesn’t actually imply something.  We’re all on this world collectively and everybody’s simply attempting to do the perfect they’ll.  Everyone works laborious.  Everybody in the end is form of attempting to do the identical factor.  So, I don’t actually take it too severely or assume that I’m higher than anybody else.

ALISON BEARD:  Yeah.  So that you speak so much about your loved ones, your conservative dad and mom, the conservative city you grew up in, however how did that upbringing impact your profession selections and the way in which you strategy your life?

MEGAN RAPINOE:  It’s fascinating.  I truthfully, I’m like are you guys positive you’re conservative?  I’m simply not like, I do know you’re voting that manner, however I feel you’re ticking the flawed field.  , I grew up in a very open, loving, like gender roles my household have been completely equal.  My mother labored nights.  My dad labored in the course of the days.  He’s a building employee.  My mother’s a waitress.  So that they each do every thing.  Yardwork, like home tasks, cooking, choosing the youngsters up, driving us in all places.  They each work.  Prefer it’s simply, I don’t know.  To me that’s form of like shared gender function was completely regular, so in that sense. The opposite stuff like I imply clearly I’m homosexual, so I didn’t actually, we didn’t discuss it so much, nevertheless it was by no means spoken of negatively.  After which as soon as I form of discovered I used to be homosexual, I used to be like oh, OK.  That is who I’m after which going again to Redding, like everybody is aware of me.  In order that was like, OK, we’re slightly not sure concerning the homosexual, but additionally we all know you, in order that form of trumps the not understanding concerning the homosexual and it form of normalized it for them. I imply every thing else, I don’t know.  I imply I feel I used to be simply uncovered to the world at a really younger age, even earlier than I left for faculty.  I had gone to Mexico Metropolis for soccer and I had gone to Bangkok and different cities in Thailand.  I’d gone to Europe and travelled across the nation and seen different folks from across the nation.  So, I feel I simply had slightly bit extra of expansive world view than possibly some folks did and I went to highschool in Portland. So, it’s actually been tougher with the kneeling for positive and a number of the racial divisions and now clearly every thing is split.  So, that’s slightly bit tough, however I additionally really feel like I’m not ashamed to be from Redding. However like I’m who I’m due to these folks.  I’m in these folks and so they’re in me.  All of the folks that I grew up with and all my mum or dad’s associates and individuals who they work with, no matter.  So, I’m form of, I really feel like uniquely American in that manner and prefer it’s simply as a lot part of the American cloth within the very conventional American dream sense as everybody else. My household’s like wild.  We’re tremendous loving.  I’ve a brother whose you realize, hooked on medicine and has had so many points.  Like I’ve relations who’re within the army.  We’re working class.  I’m who I’m.  It’s simply form of like that is what it means to love be American in our society, I suppose.  You’ve got the power to be whoever you need. So, for me they’re not at odds with one another in any respect.  I feel that it’s all form of a part of my story and I don’t shrink back from any of that.  If something, I really feel prefer it’s given me such a greater perspective in a extra holistic perspective of what it means to be American on this nation and informs the way in which that I talk about issues so much.

HANNAH BATES: That was skilled soccer participant Megan Rapinoe – in dialog with Alison Beard on the HBR IdeaCast. For those who favored this episode, take a look at HBR IdeaCast wherever you get your podcasts. We’ll be again subsequent Wednesday with one other hand-picked dialog about management from the Harvard Enterprise Evaluation. For those who discovered this episode useful, share it with your folks and colleagues, and observe our present on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Whilst you’re there, you should definitely go away us a assessment. We’re a manufacturing of the Harvard Enterprise Evaluation – if you would like extra articles, case research, books, and movies like this, you should definitely subscribe to HBR at HBR.org. This episode was produced by Mary Dooe, Anne Saini, Ian Fox, and me, Hannah Bates. Music by Coma Media. Particular due to Rob Eckhardt, Maureen Hoch, Adi Ignatius, Karen Participant, Ramsey Khabbaz, Nicole Smith, Anne Bartholomew, and also you – our listener. See you subsequent week.